152:. Creative Chaos 10
· Life · Posted by cdenning · 7 Comments
05.08.08
This is a part of the continuing conversation going on over at RagamuffinSoul.com
Something that has been getting some buzz around here, and countless other churches, is the talk about what to do about guitar amps. Now, I am not an expert on the subject, but I am a creative mind. I think there has to be a solution to this troublesome problem. Here are the two sides:
Guitarists: These guys would love to have their amps right beside them on stage, mic’d right there. They could mess with their tone all they wanted right there and could hear themselves as much as they wanted. It feels better to them, or most.
Audio Technicians: Having amps on stage makes sounds bleed into every possible mic and is a nightmare to mix. If you want it to sound good, we need a solid, consistent, contained sound. We should have the amps off stage and mic’d there some how.So how can we make both sides happy? How can we get a great feel, great tone, and great sound, all at the same time? Here are some suggested, and practiced, ideas . . .
1. Iso Boxes: These particular ones i’m talking about are small, maybe 10inx10inx10in, boxes that have a small horn and mic in there. The basic idea is that you take the wires going to the horns in your amp, and wire them to the box. So, hypothetically, you get the same tone you would from using this specific amp but it comes out this small horn in this 95% soundproof box. I have witnessed this thing in action and it is impressive. You can jack you amp up to 11 and it maybe has a low hum coming out of it, something that you will not hear from the stage. However, from the musicians I know that have used it, I’ve heard that it does compromise the tone a good bit and you loose a lot of the spark and personality. This guy was quote as saying “It just sounded really flat”. You see the conundrum with these.
2. Pods: Now I have no experience with them except for some guys who used them way back in the day, and to be kind, they sounded gross. Very boxy, very electronic, very overproduced. It sounded just like what you thought it would sound like, a guitar coming through a processor. However, I am hearing a lot of noise about them now a days. This guy can’t sing their praises enough, and the work I’ve seen from him really makes me think that there is something to this new generation of Pods. A lot of the guys at North Point, including the incredibly talented and tone-blessed Todd Fields, use these live and with recording apparently. So, there may be some hope for this solution.
3. We Go Fully Acoustic, Everywhere!: ok, this is only a joke, and maybe a solid poke at the Baptist Church, heyo! (only kidding people).
Two things for you to think about.
1. What does your church do to help with this problem?
2. What could we possibly do to help with this problem?
cd
Tom Shafer
Maybe to clarify a bit… I couldn’t care less whether or not my amp sits right next to me on-stage. It’s nice, but I understand completely the FOH issues it creates. The best solution is to isolate the amplifier itself in a separate room (a la Studio 3) and stick a microphone or two on it (providing the guitarist/FOH engineer has a clue where to put the mic). That way you’re getting your amp + your speaker + your effects + your guitar going to FOH. The biggest problem with the AxeTrak is its little speaker not being designed at all for the tones I’m trying to get… and I’m not convinced at all a little 6-inch speaker can get the same sounds as the 12-inch in my combo anyway.
Brook
We use the POD X3 Live, which is what those NP guys use. I love it. Set-up and tear-down is a piece of cake and it is a lot easier to mix…
Brook Sarver
http://www.two10eleven.com
Nathan Wright
The new PODs sound sick for the most part…can’t go wrong with that until you get into the tones that are really processed.
I’m all about getting better tone out of my amp and whether or not my amp is next to me on stage isn’t a big deal to me. A separate room or closet is always better, but I’ve found that the isolation boxes that a lot of churches are just building and using sound phenomenal.
Mark Thomas
Our stage is gigantic so the amps are isolated on stage behind a stage curtain. They also have baffles to further isolate.
No matter how you slice it you can’t get any good overdrive sound out of a POD. Great overdrive is foundational in getting great guitar tone. The POD will never compare to a nice overdrive pedal going into a nice tube amp. I know, I know, Lincoln Brewster uses a POD. Yes, he does, but he also uses a few overdrive pedals in front of it to get his drive. He doesn’t use any overdrives from the POD and he uses the effects pretty sparingly. And he still uses AC30′s on stage.
scott
I’ve been putting my amp on stage to my left with its back against a curtain covered wall. I then mic the amp and use plexiglass panels from an old drum shield to help contain the sound a little. I have the guitar put back into my monitor to hear it better. Seems to work pretty well. I’ve used pods and similar devices but there’s a certain mojo (for lack of a better word) that you get with a nice tube amp just breaking up. Yummy. Great topic BTW.
Reid Greven
Hey, thanks for the link!
Yeah, we’ve got a lot of guys here at North Point converting over to the X3 Live, but here’s a post I wrote about our amplifier isolation boxes…
http://reidgreven.wordpress.com/2008/05/08/3rd-most-popular-faq-amplifier-isolation-boxes/
Travis
Hey, came to your blog from raggamuffinsoul.com Well, there are a lot of issues to his issue. How loud is you FOH sytem during service? Does your guitarist really need it that loud? How big is the stage? Do you have a closet nearby to put the amp in? Do you use personal in-ear monitors or floor wedges? Like I said, a lot of issues. Here’s what I found. Usually, your guitarist does not need it that loud, and they’re monitor hogs, and there isn’t a closet nearby. I know, PODs are great but there are certain things they can’t do. All they really are are simulators. I’ll take an amp any day.
Ok, to the practical part. I’ve been a full-time FOH engineer in two churches.This worked great for each one. In each church, the stage wasn’t big and there weren’t any nearby closets. So we built an amp box. It’s just a box made out of plywood filled with acoustic foam that the amp sits inside of. The box needs a lid with a handle, and a hole to put a BATTERY powered fan. Also, it needs holes to run chords and the power cable. Then we painted the box a discrete color and pushed it all the way to the back wall of the stage. This solves the FOH issues and gives the guitarist their tone. But it doesn’t give them that feeling of having the amp there with them. The churches I worked in used floor wedges for instrumentalist. The guitarist already has his pedals on the floor so a wedge isn’t taking up a whole lot more space. The wedge gave us the ability to let the guitarist hear himself at a volume he wants.
Now that’s the practical part. But there’s also the philosophy part. What do you want your worship to sound like? Do you want it to be a rock feel? Then leave the amp on the stage cause you probably have it loud enough to cover the stage noise anyways. Do you want it to sound like a professionally produced U2 concert? The amp needs to be isolated. Ok so that’s great too, but what if you realize you need the amp isolated? Talk to you musician one-on-one. Talk to them about your philosophy and explain that to get the sound you all want, the amp must be isolated.
Talking to your musicians about their music is touchy, I know. But they are there to support your vision for the worship ministry. It’s about people worshipping God, not realizing they have a guitar god in their midst.